Welcome, this is my Brick Wall in Research..� Comments are not only appreciated, but truly needed to accomplish this goal.....
I am always amazed at the lack of true research used to compile books. I ordered a book, yes money for History.. In the book, I had hoped to find a little clarification on a few things. But, right off the bat.. there it was a comment that set me off again. Speaking of the Widow Fenley, she had a postmark next to it. Checking out the postmark, we find the author stating that the Widow Fenley is really Rebecca Collier widow of Zachariah P. Fenley, step daughter of John S. Roberts.
Anyone, who has ever ran research on Harriett Collier, or let me re-phrase this. Anyone who has logged Harriett in their files, even though they are repeating what someone else has written. Should know that Harriett Collier is really Harriett Fenley Collier.. Her parents were Benjamin Norris Fenley, and Ann Phillips Fenley. Ann Phillips Fenley was the child of Zachariah and Mary White Phillips.
There are researchers out there who know the truth, and have taken the time to actually record who is who in the families. So, the truth is: Zachariah P. Fenley is the son of Benjamin Norris and Ann Phillips Fenley.. He is named for his Grandfather Zachariah Phillips. So, now we have an Author who is claiming that Harriett's brother has married her step daughter.
Well, this is amazing, since Zachariah's wife was really Rebecca Danzey.... Doesn't sound anything like Collier does it? which means.. She isn't Harriett's step daughter.. Rebecca has her own Mom and Dad. William and Phillis Danzey, and surprise.. She was actually born in lauren's County, SC.. Same as Mary Ann Garrett. Also the same age as Mary Ann Garrett.. Wonder what the odds would be in Rebecca and Mary Ann knowing one another? For those who have not followed or caught up with my postings.. Mary Ann Garrett is Maria Garrett from San Augustine, Tx. The child of Stephen and Elizabeth Hammon Garrett, from Lauren's County, SC
You know that one that was suppose to be a mistake on the 1835 census as John S. Roberts wife.. And they base this assumption on the Spanish name given to Maria in the 1834 census, Eriete. Of course having read a book, and found altered census, and I mean altered.. Poison Fruit.. Tainted census, no longer a legal document.. which turns the name Eriete into Harriett, and turns the boys last name from Calit to Collier. People buy the story of Harriett, hook line and sinker. Talk about fishing for gulible people. Seems to be that should be a criminal act in altering a legal document and placing it under a cloak of copy right. What people do....
So, now we know the truth.. Zachariah P. Fenley and his wife Rebecca Danzey and their children moved from Alabama to Texas, stayed apparently with the Roberts clan, a child was born during the stay. Zachariah was killed. And Rebecca Danzey Fenley was the widow Fenley, that JS Roberts assisted, and took personal responsibility for her, as per Adolphus Sterne, when she was given a room in the Stonehouse, with the income going to her.
Now, lets touch on the terrible Yocum Gang, that two members murdered Robert Collier. The two members of this terrible group were Mathew Yocum and James Collier, both were killed within the same time frame by the boyfriend of Susan Collier, step daughter of Harriett.
A very knowlegeable Researcher, did a lot of work.. came up with a will, you will never guess who's will, his name was Mathias (Mathew) Yocum, and he died of old age.... Calcasieu Parish, La 8 October 1853. That's a far cry from being shot and killed in September of 1826. Next, lets look at James Collier, who also was suppose to have been killed in September of 1826.. Documents from the State Library of Texas, list James Collier fighting in the Tex-Mex War. Gosh, that means that he was still alive in the late 1830's and trusted to join and fight. Again, so much for being shot and killed in 1826. Those Documents are also under names such as Thomas D. Yocum, Christopher Yocum, and Jesse Yocum... This amazes me, that these bad murdering men are all listed as Claimants in the Texas - Mexican War. Also, John Collier was a Claimant.
Oh yes, let us not forget.. The Neutral zone that these people were running around, land without laws.. Guys, the Neutral Zone was controled by the Governements with Troops.. It also disappeared, in 1821.. No neutral zone in 1826.. See the wooden nickels being sent out. If these were criminals and crooks running around, they were running around in the Territory that belonged to the Mexican Governement. That's how they could slip into Lousiana, just across the line between the US and Mexico. You know its this little invisible line, one leg in Mexico and the other in Louisiana.
And of course, let us re mention, the DeWitt Colony listing, along with the DeWitt Census, The Austin Colony listings for the Cottles. Oh, we can not forget how they have placed Benjamin Norris Fenley sr. in Texas, when he actually died in Alabama by 1825. Aparently, their researcher's didn't check well enought to find out, that was Benjamin Norris Fenley Jr. Harriett's brother.. And without doubt the same property he acquired, would turn into the Collier property.. So much for Collier being a wealthy land owner.. more wooden nickels. In all that I have wandered, and learned.. Texas Researcher are not big on math.. Rather hard for them to look at documents and actually understand when there are 10 child listed in 1828, and 10 children listed in 1831 on a census listing. That there are no children missing from the house. They are all at home with Momma.. If your looking for a woman who is a widow, with a small boy, and you find a widow with a small boy, and its the same time exact time frame. If her name was written as Cottle its very easy to understand, that it is a misspelled name, come on people, think.. 1827 people didn't write any better than they do today. Cottle and Collier yes, it is a match.. just misspelled. I have tried our family names, from Hall to Hull to haul, our Nowlens, from Neulin, Neylan, Knowland, Knowlan, Nolen, Nolan.. I know better. How do you think Bristow turned into Brister.
I have one absolute premise in life.. If I read a book, that is claimed to be a True, non fictional Book, and I find one thing in there that I know is not the absolute truth. I know that I cannot trust anything in that book. Which means that my money spent for that book.. I should have gone and bought a Stephen King book.. If I am going to read fiction, well he's the best author I know on fiction, I can trust his imagination and know he isn't trying to sell me a wooden nickel. I would also tell that Author of the book I wasted money on, that he needs to fire his researcher.
I also took time to go through all the documents on John S. Roberts as a quartermaster in the Texas Militia. He started out as a plain old quartermaster, then as time went on he was made a Lt. then later an acting Captain. Still later he list himself as a Full Captain, by 1839 he is using the title of Major, there is no documents that list when promotions were given or by whom.
I had spoken to another Roberts Researcher. One who really knows the ends and outs on Researching the Roberts, and trust me.. He never accepts anything that is not a proven fact.
I had mentioned to him the biography that was written on John S. Roberts, and told him some of the specific's..
Such as, the Collier family had run off from Alabama afer stealing a bunch of slaves and came to the Neutral ground between Texas and Louisiana to hide from the law. I revealed a bit more of the tales that was told, and he scofted and said, that was Hollywood glamor. Which of course means, it was made to attract the attention of producer who would jump at the idea of making a movie about a famous charector, and not really care how much was true and wasn't.
So, Now let us take this apart.
First of all, I have researched for info in Georgia, Alabama and SC on the Colliers. That particular Robert Collier is mentioned one time in Alabama.. He and Harriett had gone to the Court House, and posted a marriage bond. They never returned, the bond remained at the court house. If and when they married was not found, if someone tells you they have found the info, ask them for a certified copy.
Second, Harriett's father was Benjamin Norris Fenley, but Benjamin the Dad, died in Alabama in 1824. And Ann Phillips Fenley remained with one of her children in Alabama. So, the Benjamin Norris Fenley who was found in Texas in 1825 was actually Harriett's brother, Benjamin Norris Fenley.. Apparently, he did not stay too long, and I believe the land he originally obtained is the land that Robert and Harriett Collier were living on.
Three, the story about the Neutral ground in 1825 is really a funny and easy to dispell, It disappeared in 1821. Gone, did not exist. Your leg was being pulled big time.
The big wedding, the rich uncle in Alabama, the disgraced family. Even the death of Robert Collier was blown out of proportion. He and his brother James Collier, had a disagreement over property. This disagreement ended in Robert Collier's death....
The only land patent certificate for Robert Collier was not issued until around 1850's, and to one of the heirs. But.. Never used. Plus, apparently the mexican government did not trust either Robert or James collier, they made them post a bond. See, no neutral ground.. Mexican State of Texas.
The trial against the estate of Robert Collier Widow, and her new husband, John Roberts.. well it seems that anyone named John Roberts is automatically transformed into John S. Roberts. So, poor old John Isaac Roberts was written out of history and Texas. Even though he was part of the Collier Estate hearings.
Now, they claim that John S. Roberts was given the authority to practice law in San Augustine, Texas. Well, I can tell one thing.. He probably spent a great deal of time in San Augustine.. Not practing law, since the boy was never a lawyer, nor had the education to become a lawyer. He was in San Augustine, to be close to a young woman, who was born in SC and migrated with her family and child to Texas. Mary Ann Garrett, daughter of Stephen and Elizabeth Harmon Garrett, Lauren's County, SC. Hello !!! Still a non believer, look for John Roberts and Lycarcus Roberts from 1850 through their death's.. San Augustine, Texas.. Boys, went to live near their family, the Garrett's. Harriett's boy stayed in Nacogdoches, close to his Momma.
So, the marriage that has been claimed for December 26, 1826, I would demand to see a certified copy, stating John S. Roberts. if you ever find the marriage record, I will give you a gold star.. And you will find, if you can find it.. It is between John Roberts and Harriett Collier, and that John Roberts was John I. Roberts. The John Roberts claimed as being a participant in the Fredonian Rebellion.. Guess who? Not John S. Roberts.. Let's try John Isaac Roberts. Now, Harriett didn't go far.. she moved over to the DeWitt Colony in Novemeber of 1827, John I Roberts is goa.. And by December of 1829, Harriett marries Andrew Tumlinson, of course Andrew is not long for this world either he dies in 1830, fighting with an Indian. And of course Harriett's name in the records isn't Collier.. It's Cottle.
So, you still want to believe the book.. Do the research yourself.. I will be happy to share all the legal documents I have. Then, set back and think about it.. you have had your leg pulled, because the truth rings out. By the way, John S. Roberts was never a Major..... That was Ingram S. Roberts, and he also has been left out of the historical write ups. All you find today are written about his grandson by the same name. So, the reality is.. believe the stories if you will. But, before you set anything down on your own family history.. Seek the truth. If I can find the truth so can you.
Don't take your family history from someone who is selling a book.. Research for your own data, and becareful re copying another researchers family data. They too copy from someone else. Do your own foot work.
John S Roberts Family Finalized.
I have found Mary Ann Garret's (Aka Maria Garrett) Family,
Father, Mother, Siblings.
I have the Father's Will, Stephen Garrett listing all children and her Mother, Elizabeth Hammond.
I also have the Will of John Hammond, father of Elizabeth Hammond.
The family came out of Lauren's,
Parents: Stephen Garrett, dies in 1823, Mother: Elizabeth Hammond Garrett.
The family migrated to
The family acquired their Passports to return to Texas, the Mother having already lived in San Augustine with her Garret Family, did not need a passport in her name. Both John S. Roberts and their son John Roberts acquired their passport in 1828.
Mary Ann and the boy John remained in San Augustine after 1828, Her listed on the Tax listings as Maria Garrett, the Tax listings run through 1831, whereas John S. Roberts moves to
John S. Roberts and Mary Ann Garrett Roberts were married in the Villa of Nacogdoches, Texas, prior to his reporting the marriage in his Recommendation for Residency and Mexican Land Patents, which he held two.
John S. Roberts who apparently already knew Harriett Fenley Collier Roberts Tomlinson, apparently the two began a common law marriage after 1835. No information can be found to determine that an actual marriage occurred.
Harriett Collier is found in the DeWitt Colony and on the 1828 census of the Colony, also the tax listings for years, 27, 28,
32,33,34,35 As Harriet Cottle. Her prior reported marriage to John Roberts, was actually to John Isaac Roberts, son of Daniel Roberts, who had been killed in
Aldophus Sterne refers to Harriett as The wife of JS Roberts on one occasion during the 1840's, on all other occasions he refers to her as the Widow Fenley. Harriett had one natural born son with her at the time she came to live with John S. Roberts, a son by Robert Collier, John F. Collier. In 1839, the boy changed his name to John F. Roberts, to allocate his ability to become an heir to JS Roberts Estate.
John S. Robert's primary history with the Battle of Nacogdoches, his signature on The Declaration of Texas Independence, stands in History. His ownership of both Grocery Stores in Milam in 1834, and in
The ownership of the Tavern located in the Old Stone Fort, apparently became quite an eyesore for the pristine new world of
John S. Roberts, prior to his death, owned a great deal of property in
Well, we are back again.. With a bit of research on John Isaac Roberts.
Found through going back to their Family History which of course is posted online,
are quite historical and Unique stories.
Allen Weeks Methvin - Roberts Family Researcher
Marilyn Schoemann McCabe - Roberts Family Researcher
John Isaac Roberts was the son of Daniel Tipton and Elizabeth Keyser Roberts
Daniel Tipton was the son of Cornelius Mumbray and Mary Ellen Benton Roberts
To read about Daniel and his Father Cornelius, you need to find the compiled family Research online.
John Isaac was one of 14 children in Daniels Tipton Roberts first marriage.
The second marriage to Mariah Swann, (great name huh) produced 8 more children.
The surprise is finding the Roberts boys in Texas.. John Isaac Roberts, of course you find him in the Sabine area, and of course he had to deal with issues of the court with Harriett Collier. He is the John Roberts listed in the Dissertation, on the Trial against the Estate, he is also the one who had to take the Oath for non appearance and have it delivered to the Court, the John Roberts who would have participated in the Freedonian Rebellion, the one who stayed in Texas.
So, to sharpen your Memory of Texas, are you familiar with Alexander Roberts, what about Abraham Roberts.. Anyone heard of Cornelius B. Roberts? Or Maria Swann Roberts? These are the siblings and Step Mother to John Isaac Roberts. The forgotten man.
What really exist, is a Major Roberts Family out of Va. Who migrated to Texas in the early 1820's. all were a part of the building of Texas..
The stories of John S. Roberts prior to 1830 should all be rewritten with the truth involve this time. With a Texas Supreme Court ruling, that John s. Roberts was not a resident of Nacogdoches, Texas or the Territory of Texas prior to late 1831. Do you understand what that means.. That John S. Roberts could not have been the same John Roberts in Sabine, in Nacogdoches in the late 1820's, as a resident or a participant. Ruled by the Supreme Court.. What more evidence does one need to face the truth.
As for Harriett Fenley Collier Roberts. I found the DeWitt Colony list, made up from the certificates on the Land Patents.
Her presence in the Colony in November 1827, the marriage to Andrew Tomlinson in 1829, his death in 1830, and her certificate in 1831..
What was done on this issue, they two different Harriett's and combined those into one. Why, lack of research and lack of ability to understand that Name spellings were not a guarentee.
Now, the story writers for Texas take TWO Harriett Cottle's, combine them into ONE person and run with a story..
Common sense has to begin to play out.. Those who are still good with Math, listen up..
Stephen and Sarah Cottle were married and raised their family in Missouri.. Mind you Missouri, in 1808. The contact with Stephen Austin, about joining the Colony was in 1828, they arrive in 1830.. Shortly after arrival Stephen dies. So, Sarah is the legal wife, who they put the Certificate in her NAME.. As of 1831 Sarah Cottle is in the Austin Colony, a Widow, with 4 boys and 6 girls.. Now.. this totals to 10 children..
The Texas story tellers, have her daughter Harriett Cottle involved and listed in the DeWitt Colony with Andrew Tomlinson. in 1827. The child was born in Missouri in 1813. We are talking about a 14 year old child with a child. Some of you might smurk and think well they did that sometimes.. Well, here is a kicker, Tomlinson was not from Missouri, I have Tomlinson families in Mississippi.
So, lets calculate, two family researchers have a total of children in the family.
one goes for 8, the other for 10, and the story teller from Texas has 15. And their oldest child would have been 19 in 1828. One thing that I can guarentee, the story teller in Texas will never be able to post a completed list of 15 children.
Harriett Cottle in 1830 - 1831 is living with her Mother in the Austin Colony. In 1832 she Marries Thomas Thompson in 1832 in the same County she was living with her Mother.
Now, the story combining Harriett Cottle from the DeWitt Colony is blown out of the water, when the discovery of the 1828 Census for the DeWitt Colony is found. It list Harriett Cottle, a widow with a child. No.. Andrew anywhere around. Only James Tumlinson single, Dec, 1828, 1. So much for her arriving with Andrew........
Harriett Cottle in the DeWitt Colony is Harriett Collier.
Do you know what happens when these discoveries are found and the Story tellers of Texas are notified.... Nothing, they completely ignore the evidence.
So, what do we have.. one John Isaac Roberts written out of History.. Two Harriett's combined into one.
And the grand stories of John Isaac Roberts families prior to 1820 elsewhere, helping build this country are never sought out, the only researchers who care enough to tell the stories are those who are members of their family.
Was John Isaac Roberts a hero? We will never know. His participation in the building of Texas, has been forgotten, left out, ignored, depleted... Which, I believe is not in the best interest in the history of texas, nor was it when this action was taken.
Andrew Tomlinson, who was he?.. where did he come from?.. who is going to tell the story about him and his father being killed by Indians? Who was his father or his Mother? His siblings? The boy has his name listed on a certificate, they claim he and Harriett were married in 1829.. No records.. And that he died. No past for either man, Nothing to tell the story of their lives or a chance to celebrate their lives.
The one important element in keeping our History alive, is to research and find the Truth.. Not to try to re-create a History. That has always been a point, that if one could travel into the past, that nothing should ever be changed then, because it effects the future. This goes for re creating History after the fact, you change the people, and the real people are forgotten and left behind.
Let me give you an example, and then you think about your own families past and present.
"When my Mother married my Step Father, there were members of his family that wanted her to give up My Sister and I for adoption. Why, so that she and my Step Father could begin a new life without another man's children involved.. That it was not fair to my Step Father to have to raise another man's Children."
Now, had she done this, the researchers for my Step Father's family would have left my sister and I completely out of the family history along with our children and grandchildren, this would have left my Father lost in history, and his family, and probably left out of my Mother's family. This is what happens when people are left behind, because it just did not suit someone's idea of what should or should not be written about the past...
This is also the reasons of my purpose, to make sure that every little detail written about families, should be the absolute TRUTH.
If I can openly and honestly admit in our family history that I had a Paternal Great Grandfather that committed suicide at the age of 19, leaving a wife and tiny baby son.. Then, researchers who are not connected with families should also respect the elements of truth in our family histories, and not the intent to make money off of our family histories, or to promote specific people as hero's, who were ordinary people caught up in terrible situations.
None of our families past is going to be perfect, they are all not going to be hero's to represent a specific State. Life within those families is going to show up a bit messy. That is real life, and they also lived real lives, not just names on a piece of paper.
Our Goals as family researchers, should always be with the intent of finding, putting the families together, honestly, truthfully and to celebrate their lives, this I believe helps all of us value our own lives even more.
Here we go again..
Well the research always seems to follow trails,
I decided to pull the DeWitt Colony original list, and I ran into a oddity..
I ran into Harriett Cottle, mind you she originally joined the Colony in 1827, and her husband (this is also and oddity), Andrew TUmlinson was mentioned as dead by 1831. One little point that really caught my eye, was the * that lead down to the bottom of the page, and also next to Harriett.. States, that this person could not read or write, and that it was very possible the names were misspelled.. Like Tumlinson, yea I would certainly think so..
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: What about Cottle.. was it possible that she was not Cottle, if other's can think that Callie or Calit were Collier, and list them that way, who is to say that Harriett Cottle was not Harriett Collier.
So, the research turned to Harriett Cottle, very big write ups on Harriett Cottle, (why would I be surprised about that), But, the writeup is about two paragraphs, and in reading them, they oppose one another.. First, it is clean that there is vague documentation on Harriett, and the next paragraph they excell in her age which in 1831 would be 19 years old and a Woman of Spirit for Texas History. Then it tells of her marriage to Thomas Thompson in 1832.
Well, having found the write up, I knew there would be family info online somewhere. So, I found two different family sites.. One that listed Tomlinson, and another who list no husband. One site listed 9 siblings in her family with Mom and Dad, and the other with 10. Mom and Dad, were Stephen and Sarah Cottle, out of Missouri. And my goodness the birthing date in Missouri for Harriett was 1813. I read that and my mind, rather begin to scream WOW,
Why you ask, she was excited to answer>>>> Lets do a bit of math here (my grandson doesn't believe he will need math or reading when he grows up,- well we do)..
Parents married around 1808, Harriett born in 1813, that's pretty normal right, well lets add a little bit of WOW to it and deduct 1813 from 1827, that's a big 14.
Now, I am expected to believe this is a child of 14, with a child, and no marriage or husband until 1829. This really is a big pioneer woman huh.. 14.. Moved to Texas all alone and accquired property in the DeWitt Colony, all at the age of 14. Amazing, isn't it........ Has this caused questions in your Mind??
Well, the next little bit will amaze you too, I found the Land Grant, and read enough Spanish to understand the dating elements, when she stated she had been in Country since 1825, my eyes rather went, large, round, and a big What came about.
Now we are dealing with a 12 year old.. Want to convince me that she came into the Territory at 12 with a Husband. Well, before you do that, lets look at the other Cottle families listed and the Tumlinsons. Let's, Stephen.. where is Stephen in the DeWitt Colony or his wife Sarah.. Golly, they are not there.. Wow, parents are not there, and of Course the first Cottle's didn't come in until 1830.. What??? And the Tumlinsons, well two brothers came in lets see, 1828 and the rest 1829..
Somthing is odd here..... And the story in two paragraphs listed above, declare she was married to Tumlinson in the Austin Colony in 1829, by the "Priest", although, I did find another commentary that stated.. if the couples married by the "Priest" in Austins colony decided they didn't want to still be married, hey just tear the paper up and its done deal, not married. So, much for legalities.
As you can tell, I hadn't yet been bought over by a wooden nickel. So, we went further, we found the 1828 census for DeWitt's Colony, there she was, not a Cottle in site, and one Tumlinson.. but not an Andrew.. She's there with child, alone, no husband.. makes you wonder....
So, now I had the paragraphs, I had the family history,
I have the original list of DeWitt Colony's and dates,
I had Harriett Cottle's land patent, and I had the 1828 census for DeWitt's Colony.
Now, it was time to track Steven and Sarah and their 9 to 10 children.. Your never going to believe this.
Sarah Cottle was listed in Austin's Colony in 1831 a Widow with 10 children in hand. 4 boys and 6 girls, listed as Stephen's Widow..... no matter how you try to add this up, still 10 children.. And I am sure whe had a daughter named Harriett Cottle, who married in 1832 to Thomas Thompson, but boys and girls.. that child was at home with her momma until 1832..
Conclusion: Harriett Cottle in the DeWitt Colony, is Harriett Collier, and boys and girls, she had gone through, John Isaac Roberts.. Andrew Tumlinson.. and now on her way as per the tax records for Harriett listed in her name for a number of years in the 1830's.. Now, in order to acquire John S. Roberts, I would believe by about 1836, she has to wait around until his wife dies...... Remember Maria Garrett...
I have a big question, all of these Texas researchers who are big on Indian versus White man conflicts, who have dug up all they possible can, where is the research and book on the Indian conflict with Andrew Tomlinson and his father near the red river, that caused the death of both men, hey, I did read in other statments, that Andrew was stabbed todeath by an Indian during a scoffle. Someone has done a bit of research there......
I saved the best for last.. Before I ran across Harriett Cottle, I had been reading all of the Texas Supreme Court decisions from very early, trying to find anything on John Isaac Roberts.
Guess what I found??? Still chuckling about it..
An Appeal filed by John s. Roberts with the Texas Supreme Court, mid 1840's.
This is the story.... Ready for this one...... Blows them out of the water.....
There was a lawsuit filed against John S. Roberts in early 1831.. not a misprint..\
early 1831, in Nacogdoches, Texas. The Sheriff could not find him, so returned the paperwork back to the Judge. A number of years later, the papers were filed again, and of course the Sheriff found him with ease, and the case was upheld against Roberts for monies owed..... So, John S. Roberts appeals the case in the Texas Supreme Court, and this is their decision... Are you ready for this one..........
That since there was an original suit filed in 1831, and JOHN S. ROBERTS, WAS NOT A RESIDENT OF NACOGDOCHES, TX.. NOR WAS HE A RESIDENT OF THE TERRITORY OF TEXAS AT THAT TIME, AND COULD NOT BE FOUND, BECAUSE HE DID NOT LIVE THERE...... THAT THE PAPERWORK COULD HAVE BEEN LEFT WITH AN ATTORNEY. BUT SINCE RETURNED AND A NUMBER OF YEARS PASSED BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND FILING, THAT THE CASE WAS OVERTURNED, AND WAS FOUND IN JOHN S. ROBERTS FAVOR........
Now people you got to stop and think here.... clear your mind and open your memory,
if John S. Roberts, had married Harriett Collier in 1826 and was living with her at her Ranch, and then they moved to Nacogdoches, and she and he could be sued by 1826 and 1827 and the court had jurisdiction, and he was right at hand to be served for both, then why did the above incidence happen.
Why, because it was John Isaac Roberts that married her, it was he that was sued, whatever John S. Roberts was doing in Texas during that time, was in the capacity of law enforcement, not chasing harriett.. after all, when John Isaac disappeared, Tumlinson was right at hand, and then killed by Indians. And look very close at her cemetery marker, at her date of birth.. very difficult to determine if she was born in 1790's or 1770's. I have blown that photo up and looked at it each and everyway, and it still looks more like a 7 than a 9.
Found two more little bits of info.
I found excerps from Ingram S. Roberts (the grandson) who talked about his Grandfather (by the same name Ingram S. Roberts) being in Nacogdoches, Texas during the War years.. Hello, they didn't bother to tell you there were two, they only list the Grandson, but they don't do a nice write up about IS Roberts, and that he was a Quarter Master for the Texas Army during the war.. I have his documents too.
People you have been conned.....
And last but not least... Do you remember Richard Sparks, out of Lawrence County,
Miss.. Law Enforcement, arrived in Mississippi Territory in 1811 with his parents,
married an Elizabeth Cooper in 1812, in Marion county, Miss. Served with the Mississippi Militia under Col Nixon. Amoung the signeers of the Petition in 1815, also a signer of the Texas Declaration, and served in the Tex-Mex War.
Guess who, was his sponser into the Texas Territory?? Come on.. Guess??
JOHN S. ROBERTS, WHO STATED THAT HE KNEW HIM TO BE AN HONEST, LAW ABIDING MAN, WHO
WOULD MADE A GOOD RESIDENT FOR TEXAS.
Well, lets use a bit of common sense here, Lets ask questions....
1. How did he know him?
A total stranger named Richard Sparks arrives in Texas with his family, and walks up to John s. Roberts and say's hey you don't know me, because I am from Miss, and your from Va, but will you sponser me and lie to the Spanish Government and tell them, what a great guy I am, and that you know me well enought to know what a great person I am, and how honest I am???
2. John S. Roberts and Richard Sparks both are men who would lie to the government, but yet honest enought to be celebrated as signers of the Texas Declaration???Well, lets try some reality here.. They knew one another from Mississippi. Where John S. Roberts was born and raised, and in the Mississippi Militia under Nixon's Command. Where the Mississippi Territory, listed as Adams County, Miss was broke into parts, and would become, Lawrence, Adams, Marion, Warren and Jefferson county.
Where John S. Roberts.. married Lucinda Arnold and was listed living next to her brother in 1816, and alone in Adams county, in 1818. Where Richard Sparks was living in Lawrence in 1820 and a Deputy, when Lucinda was living with her and John Roberts children and her second husband Cary Knapp.
This is reality, they knew each other from Mississippi. John S. Roberts is John Roberts son of John Roberts and Mary Elizabeth Montfort Calvit. John also had his half brother in Texas with him, Alexander Calvit... And if you still have the old question, where did the S. come from.. Let us look at James Stewart... John Roberts brother in law, who raised him.....
PROVE ME WRONG ....... John S. Roberts is John Stewart Roberts....
This past month spent researching John S. Roberts has really been a hoot..
I have found Library entries that listed him as a Major on a document. The reality, it was Ingram S. Roberts that was actually listed as a Major, and John S. Roberts was listed as the quarter master. I have a copy of the original and its transcription.
Now, they have John S. Roberts listed as a Major in the Fredonian Rebellion. There is actually no proof he was involved in the Rebellion, speculation that he may have participated, since it is a belief that the Rebellion was initiated by the Mason's from Louisiana, and in later years, John S. Roberts was a known Mason. When he joined, are you kidding.. Secrets with the Masons are not quite well known.
Then, the copy of the oath for the law suit, that involves Harrison and Collier arrived. And without doubt there is another John Roberts in the MIX.. John I. Roberts, he speaks of why he could not appear in court for the case on a certain date, because his wife was ill, close to death and he had to remain with her. Now, the mention of a John S. Roberts delivering the paperwork to the court for John I. Roberts and delivering the appeals. Sorry guys, but until it is accuarately determined which John Roberts was involved with the Collier widow, I don't buy it.
Of course as usual, the census.. Well, I found a bit more on the census. The John Dursk family. 1834 on Rootsweb, was altered and Harriet Matilda was added. But, they forgot to do so in the 1832 and 1833. Ma. Matilda Drosk is how it was originally posted in the census and it remained. As I said before there is no word or name in Spanish for Harriett. So, anyone altering the 1834 to submit, knew prior to the altering that her name was Harriett.
So, bottom line people, if the Spanish listed her as Ma.Matilda why didn't they list John S. Rovets wife as Ma.? Why would they call her Eriete which means Virgin?
Now, if John S. Roberts is a resident of Louisiana in 1827, then he is in 1826.. I have his law suit appeal in Louisiana, against.. Helloo... John Dursk. And, the odd thing, he had to obtain a passport to bring his wife and child into Texas in 1828. So, if his wife was already a resident of Texas and so was he, then why would he need a passport to bring her into Texas, she was already filing legal papers in Texas a year prior.
People common sense tells you, there is something wrong with the 1826 and 1827 stories.
And.. Why would the Spanish have him on the foreigners list in 1831, if he had been a resident already for 4 years??
Then there is a lady named Dorothy Sloan who has written countless books, and I found two commentaries in her work referring to John S. Roberts.
1 is a document she has of him offering land to Mr. Harrison a local attorney, in leiu of his promisary note. Of course the dating on this is October 1833. And In her second bit of tid bits, she list John Roberts as a merchant in Nacogdoches in 1827 and that he had amassed a fortune by purchasing cheap land grants.
2.That he joined the rebel force in 1832. and Bexas in 1835. also elected as a delegate to the convention in 1836 and sided the Declariation of Independence. Later he returned to the mercantile business, until 1838, and lawsuits ruined him.
We have three lawsuits,
1. Phillips against him and several other men. - 1835
2. His wife filed a suit against him. 1841
3. A suit in mid 40's by the guardian of his Wife's son, against her, listing him as the man she was currently married to. 1844
1. With the Phillips issue, it ran about 250 dollars.
2. the suit filed against him by his wife is based on laws that were created around 1838, which she quotes as being in effect when they married.
3. the suit against his wife was dated mid 1840's.
I have read the articles written in the Genealogy archives, actually they are more of a diary. not written by John S. but by one of his close business friends. It doesn't mention John S. working very much, like fishing, going to parties, going out fire hunting at night. And it does mention the day the law suit paper work arrived, filed by the Wife of John S. against him and several of his close working friends.
In another tid bit on the Collier estate law suit, I have a list of Harriett's slaves. There is no Nancy or Miller listed. But, they do appear on the 1835 census. If Harriett was actually a newly wed of John S. Roberts in 1826, and he gave her a slave or several slaves for a wedding gift, and one was blind. I don't think so.
Also learned in the Diary's that Susan Collier was the step daughter of Harriett Roberts. There is a listing of her court action against another man in Nacogdoches for stealing her slave, that she received from her father's estate. This is listed around 1841, and she is not married. Hello, she is still a Collier. No mention anywhere of her being a lady of the night.
nor having a son. And as far as the 32, 33, 34 census that list her.. There really are Callie Families, both Louisiana and Texas.
I also found a copy of the 1847 Census. Listing occupants in household by age, voter, male and female and slave.
0 over 18 to 45
2 under 18 -- could be Lycarcus as one - he would have been 17
1 over 45
4 females -- wow-- wife, Nancy, new born baby Mary, ???
So, he has an extra female in the house and an extra boy.
Cannot be Susan Collier's boy, he would have been over 18 if he were born in 1829. Who would it be, and who would the female be?
My conclusion is still the same. John S. Roberts has been tagged with everything possible to tag him with. But, I did find a commentary written about him, that stated he was a reluctant signer of the Declaration of Independence, he was one of two, that had to be convinced. So, can you imagine him sneaking across the border in 1826 to help initiate the Fredonian Rebellion? I do believe that Ingram S. Roberts might be rolling over in his Grave, knowing his military title was taken and given to someone else. And then there is poor ole John Isaac Roberts that has been written out of history from Sabine. Might well have been very important to their history, but he was replaced. Now, we still have the what if's on Maria Garrett. Has she too been written out of history? Question is why?? Why would anyone want to rewrite history and totally eliminate two people.. Actually three with Maria Garrett's boy.
I have another issue on Harriett. Her husband Robert Collier, is reported dying for two different reported reasons.
1. that he was protecting his daughter to keep her from marrying Mathew Yokam an outlaw and was murder by yokam and James Collier, his brother.
2. that the murder or the death occurred over a land dispute with his brother James Collier. Yet, I have not yet to this date found any legal activity of anyone charged with the Murder of Robert Collier. James was arrested and tried for stealing slaves.. They arrest and try you for stealing, but not Murder. Wow.. Texas justice.
Now, Robert Collier died in September of 1826, and by September 20th 1826, Harriett who could not read or write, had compiled all the estate property listings, items and slaves and sumitted them to court for probate. You see of course Collier died interstate. (for those who do not know the term - it means he died without a will). Reality, it was written and summitted by an Attorney she hired. But, she did not have enough money to pay the depts and appealed to the court to have the deptors held off until her cotton crop came in. When it did there was still not enough money, therefore, suits were filed against her for non payment. Harriett didn't have enemies, Harriett owed people money and could not pay the money. The law suits were filed against her, but since she had taken up with a man she called her husband, they under English law had to include this John Roberts as reported. Then of course John I Roberts was called into court for not appearing when required, and had to under oath make a statement of why he did not appear. Harrison vs Collier Estate.
Now, it become necessary to go through the archives and through harrison's records to determine why John S. Roberts owed him money in 1833. Yes, this will be reported. Truthfully.
In looking for the Catholic Church Archives for 1820 through 1835, I have found statements that they do not exist, never have been found. the marital records in Nacogdoches do not show John s. Roberts or wife, and I have seen the indexing and records from Sabine, not there either. Nor, are they in Natchitoches, la nor Baton Rouge, La.
It was not uncommon in the States or Texas during that time, to live together for years without being married. What if that is the truth, that would be the reason, Harriett wanted her son to have his name changed in 1839 to be an heir to Roberts Estate. In 1839 Harriett's boy would have been just turning 18. Not quite normal for an adoption to occur when one has reached the age of adulthood, but it could well be a factor that what ever property Harriett brought into the relationship, that the boy could obtain from the estate.
Plus, if one would claim thats where they were married, then that is opposed by the Recommendation for John S. Roberts to obtain a Spanish Land Grant in 1834. Which states, that he and his lady were either getting married in the local Catholic Church or married in the local Catholic Church. Hey, that was 1834, far cry from 1826. Also, found the date Dec 26, 1826 linked with another little love story found in Texas, had nothing to do with Roberts though. Too may loose ends, if the stories on John S. Roberts were 100 percent true as reported, all evidence to support that claim would be available and easy to locate. Everything found conflicts.
This is who John S. Roberts really was, he was a young man who had very little family when he arrived in Louisiana, and he made some bad choices in purchasing slaves, and it create law suits, and appeals. He probably was a Deputy Sheriff in Louisiana, but not a Sheriff. He was never an Aclaide in Texas, in 1831 that was Elisha Roberts. I can post the list that I found. He moved to Texas in 1831, no matter who his wife was, that is when he arrived. He began his career in business after that time. Although, he had more dreams than ability. He was actually looking for some place to belong. One must remember, you don't just run up and tell a group of Mason's I want to join, this one is by selection only. And, you must be an active member of the community to even be considered. Somewhere in the files of the Freemason's there is a date that John S. Roberts was selected to join. That date is set in Gold.. No one can dispute that. And somewhere it can be found, and I will find it. If that date is after 1832, then you can be sure John S. Roberts was never involved in the Fredonian Rebellion. Another issue, are the men that John S. Roberts recommended for citizen ship. 2 of those men were from Mississippi. One from Lawrence county, miss. Also were under Nixon's command in the War of 1812. For John S. Roberts to know the charector of both of these men, he had to have known them in his life. This could well be another confirmation of John S. Roberts having been born and raised in Mississppi. You see Lawrence County, Miss, where this man Sharpe had come from, he was in Law enforcement in Lawrence, and Lawrence county is a break away County from Adams County in 1818. John Roberts was in Adams in 1818, confirmed by a legal document.
There are two things that I believe in, one is truth in Research, and truth in Genealogy. If what I find is not an absolute guarenteed fact, then its not going to be added to the family genealogy. Another fact, am I a leader in search of the truth, or am I a follower who believes anything someone else reports without the concern of it being truth or muck. As a researcher and knowing that Harriett Fenley Collier Roberts was the daughter of Ann Phillips born in Anson county, NC, a guarenteed decendent of my Step Father, and within our Phillips Family Genealogy, it would not be difficult to be attached to her as the wife of John S. Roberts. But, if there is a woman who was in the wife position prior to Harriett, as a determined after the truth Researcher, I feel it is my reponsibility to learn the truth and report it as such. Plus, if John S. Roberts is JOhn Roberts from Miss. Then I have three wives to report, and the accurate amount of children, where they migrated to, the children they had are hightly important for our family history.
Therefore, nothing can be overlooked, nor taken for granted.
Roberts Updates, December 9, 2008
Well, interesting tid bits have popped up on the wall for John S. Roberts. First, received the cd containing all marriages from 1826 through 1880. The only time John S. Roberts was mentioned was as a witness and as a wedding held in the home, dated: December 26, 1850.
On this cd is a narrative dated 1927, describing both the Freedonian Rebellion and the Nacogdoches Battle. Now on the Freedoian Rebellion, of course John S. Roberts is not listed, Why one would ask? Because he is not a resident of Texas, nor living there. Found another clue, and will be ordering the documents. Listed below will give you an idea, of the why's and why nots.
You see the issue of John S. Roberts being in Texas in 1826 is not as it seems. These are the legal case index and descriptions of the estate of Robert Collier, who died in Sept of 1826, and his wife Harriett did not take care of the estate, she had a lawyer do so. She just provided the info.
But, there were three little words that were overlooked when they pushed John S. Roberts into the story.. JOHN I. ROBERTS.. WHO ONE WOULD ASK, I WILL BE HAPPY TO TELL YOU.. JOHN ISAAC ROBERTS, BORN IN VA, SON OF DANIEL ROBERTS.. SAME AGE AS JOHN S. ROBERTS, OUT OF THE MISSISSIPPI AREA ALSO..
HARRIETT COLLIER WAS INVOLVED AND MARRIED TO JOHN ISAAC ROBERTS. WOW.. Although, not marriages can be found...
"(336) Legal Document Harrison (Jonas) and Hopkins, attorneys for Jared Groce in the estate of Robt. Collier (Asbine), Dec. 16, 1927
(199) Bond, James and Robert Collier; 1/19/1826, Nacogdoches Archives, (200) Examination of Robert Collier; 1/19/1826, Nacogdoches Archives. box-folder
3/9/1827, Arbitration decision, Harrison vs. estates of R. Collier, 12/3/1827, Oath of John I. Roberts, Harrison vs. R. Collier, 12/29/1827."
And the good news arrrived this morning, I can obtain a copy of the original law suits filed against the estate of Robert Collier and Harriet, and her new Husband John I. Roberts.
So, you know there will be an update on this information.
This is also the same John Roberts involved in the Freedonian Rebellion.
I also ran across the Dessertation of JEAN A. STUNTZ, DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY.. who wrote the paper "HIS, HERS, AND THEIRS: DOMESTIC RELATIONS AND MARTIAL PROPERTY LAW IN TEXAS TO 1850"
Notice that in the following quote's from Jean A. Stuntz,
"she list the new husband in 1826 as John Roberts".
Quote: By Jean A. Stuntz
"Apparently Collier was not able to pay off all the
debts, because in April 1827, she was sued, in her capacity
as administratrix, by James Tate. She was joined in this
suit by her new husband, John Roberts. No outcome of this
suit remains in the archives, but creditors Harrison and
Hopkins won a judgment against John Roberts and wife as
curators of the estate of Robert Collier. Here the suit was
against the new husband, though the wife/administratrix was
named. As under English law, it was the husband, not the
wife who was the administratrix, who had to provide bond as
defendant. In January of 1828, the same John Roberts and
wife filed a plea for justice in the estate of Robert
Collier, in response to a suit by yet another creditor,
named Bean, who wanted to attach some of the Roberts=s slave
in lieu of payment. Harriet testified that the slaves Bean
wanted were given to her as a wedding present by her new
husband, and so were not part of the Collier estate. Here,
again, the suit is actually against the wife in her capacity."
(Now, in her paper she is very distinct about the difference, one she refers to as John Roberts, but when she is referring to the other she call's him John S. Roberts)
Quote: By Jean A. Stuntz.
"Because of english law had no form for adoption, the Texas legislators created their own process. This two part act of law included a name change for the adoptee, and the declaration that the adoptee was the legal heir of the adopter. John Finley Collier, son of Harriet Collier who is mention in chapter eight, changed his name to John Finley Roberts, "WHEN" Harriett married John S. Roberts."
Notice the "WHEN", well "WHEN" for the name change is 1839. First, Roberts husband is "John Isaac Roberts". How can we be absolutely sure, well lets see the law suit is a legal document, correct.. And the index for the lawsuit list John Isaac Roberts. Therefore, it must be a fact. Plus, there is another factor, and a legal document to prove that John S. Roberts, was a resident of Louisiana during this period of time.
Surprise: John S. Roberts vs John Durst, Natchitoches, Louisina. Yes, they were both in Louisiana at the same time in 1827, and had been there prior, because this law suit listed below is an appeal. Neither one were in Texas in 1827.
This court case was published on the web, by the University of North Carolina at Greensboro.
"ROBERTS, John S. in Petition 20882720
Name: ROBERTS, John S.
Petition: 20882720 filed in Louisiana, 1827
Role in Petition: petitioner
Ethnicity and Gender: white male
Owned slaves? Yes.
DURST, John in Petition 20882720
Name: DURST, John
Petition: 20882720 filed in Louisiana, 1827
Role in Petition: defendant
Ethnicity and Gender: white male
Owned slaves? Yes.
Mary in Petition 20882720
Petition: 20882720 filed in Louisiana, 1827
Role in Petition:
Ethnicity and Gender: black female
Enslavement Status: slave
Age: approx 16 years of age in 1824
BROWN, Herbert in Petition 20882720
Name: BROWN, Herbert
Petition: 20882720 filed in Louisiana, 1827
Role in Petition:
Ethnicity and Gender: white male
Owned slaves? Yes.
WINTER, Manette in Petition 20882720
Name: WINTER, Manette
Petition: 20882720 filed in Louisiana, 1827
Role in Petition:
Ethnicity and Gender: white female
Owned slaves? Yes.
How can we be sure its the same John S. Roberts, well its actually the third law suit that I have obtained from Natchodoches involving John S. Roberts. The third one who he is listed on, and it is a copy of the actual document: dated 1829. John S. Roberts, lawsuit and court cases are listed, and he is a member of the Police Jury. Which of course means he had to be a member of the community, a RESIDENT.
Then we have his Passport into Texas... Dated: 1828 along with a Wife and Child.
1829: Resident of San Angelina on Tax list = Maria Garrett
1830: Resident of San Angelina on Tax list = Maria Garrett
1831: John S. Roberts listed as "Foreigner" in Texas
This is the good one. On the posted census online for years 32, and 33 and 34. They have John S. Roberts, Harriett, John collier, and Lycaraus. But, only on 1834 did they remember to edit, John Durst family, and list her as Harriett. They forgot on 32 and 33. There is this little factor that there is no spanish name for Harriett. So, 1832 and 1833 list it the same as the originial transcript of Marilyn Mullins.
And in 1834 census by Marilyn Mullins, it list the family as
John Dorst "Durst"
Now, for John Roberts: the same census, 1832, 1833, 1834 show,
John S. Roberts
Well, what it really said and Marilyn Mullins gives us the clue.
Rovets, John S.
Calit, John S.
For those who wish to use phonics in pronoucing the word, you need to stop and realize, Mexican's didn't use american 1900 phonics. They did one of three things. combine two names into one, very common, use the meaning of the word for the person, and three they did not have a mexican word for Harriett, they would have used a term like they did with Durst wife. ma. Now, we know the word Eriete means "Virgin" aka "Maria", or the combined name Maria Garrett.
Now, lets cover the Susan Collier and son..Listed in the 1834 census, by Marilyn Mullins, it list her as Calie, Susanne (note a mark by her name '.)
Well, the description for Susanne has been reported as ' standing for Widow, Surprise, the symbol for widow was 4. the symbol ' stands for Niece.Looking carefully at the census, I wondered, if this was Harrietts daughter,as reported in the other census, her only daughter, why would they not have put a mark by Harriett's name and by Susanne's name to designate they were related, why.. not there. And why was she using her maiden name and not her married name. I mean to become a widow, you need to have been married.. name change???? This is 1832, 33, 34 you changed your name. But not here in this one.. You wear your maiden name. By the way, so did her son?????
So, lets sum that one up.. on the online posted census, the name is changed to Callier, Gallier, Collier, not noted as related to Mother Harriet, also the child so wearing Mother's maiden name.. Anything look strange here???
When I questioned these factors, of course there are always reponse and excuse, well her Mother thrown her out and disowned her because she caused her father's death. She became a prostitute Well, hello again, the real cause of her father's death, not as reported..
"HE WAS KILLED OVER A LAND DISPUTE WITH HIS BROTHER, ACCIDENTAL KILLING."
No, murdered in his bed while he lay next to his wife.. Because his brother wanted his niece to marry an Outlaw, Don't you love drama.
The question again, now that we have taken the drama out of the reality, why didn't they mark them as related??? Why, because that wasn't her Mother. Shall we continue.
1834: I have John S. Roberts document of his recommendation to obtain a land Grant.. It states, a very descriptive statement, when it talks about he and his wife. "Carado in this town by our Mother yglicia", The word Carado has the d crossed like a T. Which combines the two words, Carado and Carato.. Carado means Married, Carato means, getting married.
This phrase I do believe is the glincher: "to do the tie-up above aprerado Probate".... Which in my opinion means: they are getting married locally.
1834 - Maria Garrett.
1835 = census - list Maria Garrett as Wife.
Now, this means two things.. lets cover first the boys name listed in 1834, by Marilyn Mullins, Calit... When a name can cause confusion, the spanish would and still do, use a second surname. Using your best, how close is Calit to Collier or Callier, or could it well be mean't for John S. Roberts Mother's second Surname: Calvit. Calit - Calvit.. hummmm..
If that is the reality, and it mean's Calvit.. Then without doubt, John S. Roberts is John Stewart Roberts, born in Miss.
Since this was not John S. Robert natural son, but he was going by the Roberts name already, his last name must be Garrett.. named for his real father, John Garrett? hummmmm. Now, I have found a John S. Garrett in later census, father was from Va, and Mother was from Tenn, and of course, the boy was born in Tenn. Lets, talk about the other two Garrett families that enter Texas at the same time, who are from Tenn, and oh my gosh, they have or had a brother named John Garrett, who was born in Va.
Lets continue.. You will notice in the 1835 census, that there is a female slave in the home of John S. Roberts, and her little son Miller. Nancy is the lady's name. she is 5 years younger than Maria Garrett, and I have no doubt very close to little John.
1839: Now we have determined that John S. Roberts has remarried a woman named Harriett. What happened to Maria is yet undertermined. But, we are through yet.
1850: On the federal census, it list the family with of course Harriett. But, they have added a few other details, we must not over look details: Nancy has a last name "Dancey", so we now have Nancy Dancey, and a notation she is "BLIND". Nancy's son Miller is now in the field or on his own, boy is no longer in the household, but Nancy has a Baby girl, 3 years old, and her name is "MARY". For those who haven't caught on yet, Mary is English for MARIA. And she is three. which means she was born around 1847. Let's sum this up, Blind servant, new baby.. Don't think she got out of the house very much. Hummm.
Around 1875, there is several donations of land to a "Blind" Assylum, in the name of JOHN GARRETT. Makes you Wonder.
1860 the census changed, oddly enough, Harriett is now the head of the household, with John S. listed without an occupation. I believe that John S. was then either ill or did not have the ability to get around.
Before I end this little blog, I want to post a statement that was made in 1927: Titled: The Book of Nacogdoches County, dated July 1, 1927. Compiled by "Nugent E. Brown".
First is the questioning of John S. Roberts living in Nacogdoches in 1832.
Quote: From Nugent E. Brown. - Battle at Nacogdoches - 1832.
"The Roberts mentioned as one of the seventeen engaged in the battle of Nacogdoches, in Col. Horton's account of the batte, was doubtless John s. Roberts of Nacogdoches. John S. Roberts resided in Nacogdoches at the time, and I have been informed by members of his family still living, that he was in the battle."
Municipality of Nacogdoches - Chapter III
"In the year 1834 Gen Thomas J. Rusk came from Georgia to Texas and permanently located in Nacogdoches, where he resided until his death, which occurred in 1857. In 1832 General Sam Houston came to Texas and made Nacogdoches for some time his home. The law firm of T.J. Rust, J. Pinkney Henderson & K.L Anderson existed in Nacogdoches and San Augustine sometime between 1834 and 1838. Bennett Blake came to Nacogdoches in 1835. Nathan Wade came here in 1835, M. G. Whitaker in 18-, Murry Orton in 1838, John S. Roberts in 1833, and Col. John Forbes in 1835."
So, it was a question as to when John S. Roberts came to Texas. Even though his family stated he was in the Nacogdoches Battle. Definition: adverb probably, presumably, most likely. But.. not confirmed.
For some reason or the other, John S. Roberts was believed to arrive in 1833. Since he is on the foreigner list as of 1831. So that is the confirmation that he was here in 1832.
The Real John S. Roberts
1795 through 1850
John Roberts, was born in Villa Gayoso, Mississippi Territory in 1795, son of John Roberts of Culpeper Virginia and Mary Elizabeth Montford Culvit Roberts, from North Carolina
John Stewart Roberts is belived to be the God Son of James Stewart, from North Carolina, who had migrated to Villa Gayoso, Mississippi Territory in 1790. Stewart was married to Lucrecia Culvit, daughter of Mary Elizabeth M. Culvit and Frederick Culvit.
John Roberts sr. died in 1802, and Mary Elizabeth Roberts died in 1805. Young John Roberts and his brother’s, Isaac, William and James were raised in the home of James and Lucrecia Stewart in Jefferson County, Miss.
1810 the boys are out of the house, and the War of 1812 is raging. James Stewart joins the Militia serving in Alabama, also young John joins the Mississippi Militia.
1815 young John Roberts has returned home and marries Lucinda Arnold, in Amite County, Miss on January 15 1815.
1816 the young Roberts family is living in Amite County, Miss next to
William Arnold, Lucinda’s brother. The census reveals they are just a couple, but knowledge of the impending birth of the daughter Mary Elizabeth, determines that Lucinda is pregnant. Mary Elizabeth Roberts was born in 1816.
1818 John Roberts is found living alone in Adams County, Miss, next to Philip Roberts, family relationship undetermined. Also in the community is the Knapp Family.
Aaron Arnold’s family in Amite County, has increased by two females. One that is very tiny and one Lucinda’s age.
1820 John Roberts disappears and Lucinda marries Cary Knapp.
1820 James Stewart and his son James Duncan Stewart (God Son of John Roberts Sr.) migrate to Rapides Parish, La.
The “Where is John Roberts” begins.. The evaluation of all John Roberts in Mississippi, Lousiana, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, reveal there is only one John Roberts that matches. The initial John Roberts was found in the Texas Hand Book….. The following are the two Roberts in comparison.
B: Miss Terr
War of 1812
| || || || || |
John S. Roberts
War of 1812
| || |
Col. John Coffee’s
The amazing thing, the story in the Texas Handbook, changed after contact was made, with Carolyn Erickson. The information pertaining to the war of 1812, fighting with his father, was completely changed. I have copies of both the original and the newly revised.
Fact: John S. Roberts, documents that prove that he was in Nacogdoches, Louisiana in January of 1820, also confirmation he was there on November 25, 1820. That he filed an appeal to a lawsuit in 1823 and present in 1824. Also, a lawsuit that was filed around 1829 that included John S. as a participant against a Judge who had failed to pay his Police Jury monies owed for Service.
Fact: The passport obtained by John S. Roberts to enter Texas, dated 1828,Along with wife and son, John age about 5. Note: Child is under Roberts name.
Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s
Name: John S. Roberts Age: 31 <1797>
Family Members: Wife; Son John 5
Source Publication Code: 1752
Primary Immigrant: Roberts, John S
Annotation: From the Nacogdoches Archives, University of
Texas Transcript, vol. 20. Covers period 1824-1834. Includes "foreigners" received as citizens, with some information concerning them and the dates of their presentation for citizenship. "Foreigners" to those in East Texas were persons from another state. Names, previous locations in America, dates of citizenship, and other information. See also no. 4079, Krause.
Source Bibliography: EARLY EAST TEXAS CITIZENS:
FOREIGNERS SETTLED AT NACOGDOCHES. In Records of East Texas, vol. 3:3 (Apr. 1969), pp. 494-497..
John Roberts ( NOTE: Child entered Texas as a Roberts)
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Family Members: Wife; Son John 5
Source Publication Code: 1752
Primary Immigrant: Roberts, John S
Annotation: From the Nacogdoches Archives, University of Texas Transcript, vol. 20. Covers period 1824-1834. Includes "foreigners" received as citizens, with some information concerning them and the dates of their presentation for citizenship. "Foreigners" to those i
Source Bibliography: EARLY EAST TEXAS CITIZENS: FOREIGNERS SETTLED AT NACOGDOCHES. In Records of East Texas, vol. 3:3 (Apr. 1969), pp. 494-497.
Fact: Spanish land grant filed for and obtained by John S. Roberts
Dates listed 1829 – 1834, the grant is in Spanish.
Fact: Maria Garrett, found in San Augustine, tx on tax census dated1829, 1830. Maria Garrett
County: Texas Territory
Township: San Augustine
Database: TX Tax List Index, 1820-1829
List of Foreigners in Nacogdoches.
Blake Collection, Vol. XIX, pp. 6-7, Jan. 18, 1831
Nacogdoches Archives, Jan 18, 1831. Vol. 55, pp. 80-82
List of foreigners resident in this municipality that in com-
pliance with the order of His Excellency Minister of State and of
Relations of the 17th of November past communicated by the Senor
Political Chief of this Department for the renewal of the Card of
Security, and under the solicitation provided is the uperior order,
have proceeded to make the following: Carta de Security
John S. ROBERTS
Nacogdoches, Jan. 18, 1831. Manuel de los Santos Coy
Fact: The 1832 . 33, and 34 Census
Show: John S. Roberts
John S. Collier son
Fact: Only the 1832 , 33 , 34 cenus
Show: Susan Collier Widow
Robert Collier son
Note: Robert Collier appears in 1850 census
As 21 year old male, not within a Collier
Home, nor is he head of household.
Note: Why is Susan Collier using her
Maiden name instead of married name
And why is her son using her maiden
Name versus his father’s name.
Fact: John S. Roberts, through documents he signed, he signed, John Roberts and J Roberts, and John S. Roberts. Document’s obtained.
Fact: A young couple, under the name: John Robertson..same age line as John S. Roberts, and wife and small boy under age of 5 are listed in Baton Rouge census dated 1830.
Fact: John S. Roberts found on 1835 census with different wife.
1835 Nacogdoches County, Texas
<1798> 37 John S. ROBERTS Married Merchant
<1802> 33 Maria GARRETT Wife
<1825> 10 John Son ( Note: Child listed under Roberts Name..)
<1830> 05 Lycurgus do
<1809> 26 Nancy negress
<1832> 03 Miller negro
Fact: An adoption occurred over son John in 1839.
Fact: The first Adoption laws were passed in 1839.
Fact: That Harriett Fenley was married to John S. Roberts Shown in census for years 1850, 1860, 1870, and gave part of his property over to his children prior to her death in 1874.
Primary Conclusion: Original documents, and details need to be obtained for comparison, of data transcribed and placed online.
1. Conclusion: John Roberts was married in La, prior to entering Texas. 2. Conclusion: Marital records would be in one of two locations,
Natchitoches, Louisiana or Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Probably found in the Catholic Diocese, in Alexandria.
Note: Search is currently underway.
3. Conclusion: The oddity of young John only using the name Collier in the census dated 1832, 1833, 1834. All other Documents and census he is listed under John Roberts. At the bottom of 1834, the document has been authorized as accurate, the other two are not, they appear to have been left blank? Also 1833 shows the Priest living in the community on the census, that would have to have been the Catholic Church, but he is not shown in 1832 or 1834.
4. Conclusion: All attempts to obtain copies of original 1832 , 33 , 34 census is underway. Transcribed copies in University at Tyler, which includes images of original Spanish census.. This is the one to obtain, for accurate comparisons, and attempt to obtain is in progress.
5. Marital Records on disc from “Hunting for Bear’s” for Baton Rouge, east and west is in progress.
6. A copy of Marilyn Mullins census data for years 1832 through 1834 is in progress to order, from National Genealogy Association Publication.
7. Copies of 1830 and 1840 Citizens of Texas is on film and can and will be ordered through local LDS Office, in Pinehurst, NC. Book was written by Gifford E. White, data to be obtained will be out of first edition, 1983 – 1984.
8. Yes, I am aware of biography written on John S. Roberts 9. Yes, I am aware of write up in Texas Handbook, note: same was written by author of Biography. 10. Yes, I have obtained and been sent several copies of same PDF file of Payne Genealogy.
Note: John Roberts son of George Roberts who settled in Tenn. Was listed in 1816 Adams County, Miss census. Would you like a copy? Another researcher in same family unit, advised he had located a document, that stated that a John Roberts had gone to Amite County, miss and purchased a female slave for his 16 year old son, James.
1820 he, his son’s John Jr. and James Roberts were settled in Washington Parish, Louisiana. Would you like a copy? You can find the same along with John Sr. brothers in years 1830, 1840. etc. would you like to have copies? John sr, is at least 15 years older than John S. Roberts, and his son is at least 15 years younger. Compare the age factors on census your self, will provide the copies.
Therefore, neither one of the John Roberts, Son nor Grandson of George Roberts equals = John S. Roberts. Surprisingly, the same information was available, when research on the other son’s, Isaac, William, Absolom was completed.
Opinions are welcome…. Please base them on FACT’S, and not Emotion.
The last two weeks, has been a whirl wind of search and research for John Roberts. The actual search began a number of years ago, but always remained .. "Stalled"
Facts: John Roberts was born!
Fact: John Roberts married Lucy Arnold January 1815
Fact: Both advised they were over 21, both born in 1895.
Fact: John Roberts and Lucy were living in Amite County, ms 1816
Fact: John Roberts and Lucy had two children, Elizabeth & John.
Fact: Arnold Family was in Amite county by 1810.
Fact: Lucinda Roberts remarried in 1820, James Arnold attended.
The following facts are within Adams County, Miss
Fact: John D. Roberts migrated to Adams by 1795.
Fact: John D. Roberts is the son of Benjamin Roberts and
Ann Duncan Roberts, Culpepper County, Virginia.
Fact: John D. Roberts is the Grandson of William Duncan of Va.
Fact: John D. Roberts married Mary Elizabeth Montford Calvit
Fact: Mary Elizabeth Montford was the widow of Fredrick Calvit.
Fact: John Roberts had three children by previous marriage, Philip, Lewis and Winfred Roberts.
Fact: A child named John Roberts was born around 1795.
Fact: John Duncan Roberts will dated 1802, gave property and slaves to God Son, James Duncan Stuart.
Fact: Lawsuit, by guardian of Calvit Children, against the issue of Calvit Property within the will. From a Spanish Land Grant.
Fact: John Duncan Roberts died in 1803.
Fact: Mary Elizabeth Montford Calvit Roberts died in 1805.
Fact: Both John and Mary Elizabeth Roberts buried in Miss.
Fact: 1810 Census list John Roberts (son) in Adams Cty.
Fact: 1816 tax census list John Roberts (son) in Adams Cty.
Fact: 1818 tax census list John Roberts (son) in Adams Cty.
Fact: John Roberts Family was Catholic.
Fact: John Roberts (son) served in the War of 1812, in the Mississippi Militia.
Fact: Winfred Roberts married a Robertson in Adams Cty, as per archives of Gen web.
Fact: No Roberts listed in Adams Cty, Miss in 1820 census.
Fact: No John Roberts listed in Amite County, Miss in 1820 census
Fact: Cary and Lucinda Arnold Roberts Knapp and two small children listed in Lawrence County, Miss Census 1820.
Conclusion: Yes, up for debate..
John Roberts (son) was Christened in Adams County, Miss, also has a God Father. Believe the God Father will be James Duncan Stuart.
John Roberts (son) from Adams County is the same John Roberts who married Lucinda Arnold, Fathered their two children.
There was a divorce, Lucy remarried. John Roberts migrated into Lousiana.
Fact: St. Helena Parish, La. 1820 Has a John Roberts listed, no occupancy in residence, although stipulated there had been one person working property.
Fact: St. Lauren Parish, La 1820 Has a single male occupant on property under the name of John Roberts.
Fact: St. Lauren Parish, La 1830, no John Roberts listed.
Conclusion: John Roberts headed for Texas......
Fact: Grandchildren of John Roberts and Lucinda Arnold Roberts, migrated to Rapides Parish, La.. Mary Polly Nowlen Brister in 1849, and sister Susan Nowlen Newman migrated in 1865, married a Brister boy, two babies, migrated to Gonzales County, Texas, married Juan Gonzales.
travel passport for John Roberts and family of 3,
excerps from Will of John Duncan Roberts, listing Grandfather as William Duncan of Culpepper, Va.
Copy of William Duncan's Will from Culpepper, Va, listing his daughters name.
Law suit document for Calvit children.
Permission for marriage, signed by Elizabeth Dunn, Susan Mother.
Contact to a County Clerks Officer, requesting information, copy of wills, advising willing to pay for service or copies. Told point Blank. "We do not do Genealogy",